Curse

Stealth Bomberman · Oct 23, 2008, 03:31 AM // 03:31

I know i'm going to get flammed for this, but all this talk about sins being weak and inferior to all the other prof. makes me wonder if ppl have actually gone DEEP into sin gameplay. I've had my (main) sin for 4 1/2 months so far, idk if im just naturally good at sins, but I hardly ever have problems in pve and i almost excell above any party im in in pvp. Most of what ppl know and hate about sins that I have read lately is, shadowstepping, n00bz tanking, and easy shuttdown. sadly this isn't enough to tell me sins suck and are useless, especially the things i've done with em.

I'm new to forums and just made my acc today, the only reason I made one is so I could finally get this stuff off my chest. It's hard not being able to post and defend ur prof when ppl are bashing it for no reason.

I'm not gonna ask why u ppl hate sins b/c I know the answer. "low armor waaah"!, "low health waaaah"!, "warriors reign supreme waaaah"!, "shadowstepping ftl waaaah"!. All the die hard sins out there like me, much love to ya, but for ppl who bash on em and spit in their faces, i've had much more fun and rewarding experiences thanx to sins utility and gameplay. I couldn't imagine gw w/o em.

let the flamming..........begin

Tom Swift · Oct 23, 2008, 03:43 AM // 03:43

No flaming from me

I've tried all the professions and the sin is the only one that I really absolutely enjoy playing. Warriors bore me and I hate being in the back lines as a spell caster or monk. I suspect I could have enjoyed the dervish but I had the sin first.

Improvavel · Oct 23, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Earth is flat didn't you know? That is what most pugs say in GWs.

About people hating assassins - the class is a bit of a silly concept. Instant gibs is a bit retarded.

In PvE they are another way of playing the melee role.

Stealth Bomberman · Oct 23, 2008, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Earth is flat didn't you know? That is what most pugs say in GWs.

About people hating assassins - the class is a bit of a silly concept. Instant gibs is a bit retarded.

In PvE they are another way of playing the melee role.

you're the exact kind of player i was hoping would make a negative comment. all u proved is that u know the n00b basics of how sins work.

caballo_oscuro · Oct 23, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

I have to agree that people who make comments about sins are generally clueless as to their potential. Every profession has a role to play in-game.

My primary is a Warrior, who I've played for years and I still favour him over other professions. I do play other professions though.

there's alot to like about the sin, if you know how to utilise their abilities you can be as effective as a derv in handling multiple enemies, as effective as a warrior for spiking and pressure, and as an all round damage dealer.

I got knocked once for using a sin hero, a monk hero and my para to help peeps play Grand Court of Sebelkeh in nf but I simply played my role and wiped buckets of mobs while they wept as the margonites drove through them. Eventually we got overwhelmed but my 3 were still standing when they were all wiped.

You see most people don't understand that in order to truly play guildwars, you need to have a team that works well together. That depends on skills and attributes applied throughout a party. Simply saying sins suck is really saying "I suck at playing sin and don't want to understand the dynamics of the game".

Granted I'm not an uber leet player, but I know what's involved in playing this game. How many peeps have left since the Ursan nerf cos they couldn't cut it?

Luminarus · Oct 23, 2008, 04:25 AM // 04:25

The problem with sins is that they are a flawed concept. Since you dont want just flames etc ill explain why.

Firstly in pvp.
The assassin is not made for the front line. Its low armor, low auto attack damage and lack of serious survival skills/IAS make this evident. Therefore it cannot replace a warrior for frontline pressure. So what is a sin meant to do? Spike a target hard and quick to death, right? There are two problems with this. Firstly if it can do it effectively, its overpowered. Anything that can without skill, and in less the 5 seconds (solo) drop a character from full hp to 0 is overpowered. Therefore fast kill chains have to be balanced such that they cant always instantly kill. But now the sin cant pressure, and cant effectively spike, so its essentially a warrior that cant pressure between spikes? Tell my, why run an ineffectve option?

The other common option choices are short recharge low damage spikes... problem being need to stay in the frontline which is not where the sin is meant to be. So the problem in pvp is that the class concept is either overpowered or not as good as other options.

In low end areas, sure they are gods but thats only because low end doesnt have the organisation to defend against one. On a side not, also note that a sins attack chain is highly fragile, block/interupt/miss one skill and ur spike is gone. In pvp, that means 1 savage shot, steam etc and ur useless until u recharge. You cant change and spike with the rest of ur combo.

In PVE no argument sins work. Moebius Deathblossom has arguably one of the most potent melee damage, and is cool. Critical Agility allows the sin to stay in the front line to spam attacks. But in pve, the sin 'spike' doesnt work because things have to much hp to die most of the time.

Please dont assume I am a sin hater. I love sins, but having played them and other classes, in most pvp situations a war/derv/thumper is a better option, and in most pve situations, well they work fine, and I wouldnt necessarily want a different option, but the arent irreplaceable.

Finally, in pve and pvp a sin is all about pressing 1-2-3-4-5 (or variations of this), there is no such thing as a "good" sin. There is noob sins, and then there are people that arent idiots. If ur the latter ur a "good" sin.

sthpaw · Oct 23, 2008, 04:44 AM // 04:44

im not a pvper,
but in pve sins are good, i kill shiro in hm or nm in factions for pugs free of charge when im bored. they are a good frontliner in doa/fow, good farmers.....
ummm....yeh i wouldnt say there crap

FlamingMetroid · Oct 23, 2008, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

you're the exact kind of player i was hoping would make a negative comment. all u proved is that u know the n00b basics of how sins work.

obvious_troll.jpg

Konig Des Todes · Oct 23, 2008, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

I know i'm going to get flammed for this, but all this talk about sins being weak and inferior to all the other prof. makes me wonder if ppl have actually gone DEEP into sin gameplay.

This was all I had to read in order to answer your thread.

No, most people do not go into sin gameplay very much.

People see the Assassin and think "cool, a new tank" or "sweet ninja time!"

Then they go in, try to tank, and get wtfpwned because they don't know that assassins usually do not tank (they can, but only with specific builds - and I'm not talking about Perma SF).

Then they go "wtf why is the armor low?!?!?" and they just rip on sins mindlessly saying "sins are weak" and "sins are so easy a monkey can roll it's head across 1-7 and pwn." - that last statement was later revised to be used for Ursan.

Most people should know, that most people suck as assassins in PvE at first due to their melee range, lack of good defense skills at first, low attributes, and low armor, and because they don't know that, they give up before getting max armor, good skills, max attribute points, and say that sins suck.

Same goes with Mesmers, they are harder to play than most casters, like sin is harder than most melee, and people bash on them because they cannot play those professions.

If I was as nonsensical as these people, I'd be bashing on supporters 24/7 because I absolutely suck at playing a support role (I always end up over healing, or just targeting myself).

caballo_oscuro · Oct 23, 2008, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

The problem with sins is that they are a flawed concept.

Well the alternative was something similar to the rogue in warcraft and anyone who's gone there knows how unpopular they are. While there are similarities, the sin is unique in many ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Firstly in pvp.
The assassin is not made for the front line. Its low armor, low auto attack damage and lack of serious survival skills/IAS make this evident. Therefore it cannot replace a warrior for frontline pressure. So what is a sin meant to do? Spike a target hard and quick to death, right? There are two problems with this. Firstly if it can do it effectively, its overpowered. Anything that can without skill, and in less the 5 seconds (solo) drop a character from full hp to 0 is overpowered.

The Sin was intially intended to hit and run, either as an initial damage dealer, stealth attack to weaken an opponent or to hold aggro til a tank got in then retreat and lash out, basically to cause confusion. Instead players used shadow steps to run in and try to spike. Sins were never intended to hold pressure in pvp, merely to be a troublemaker, starter or finisher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

The other common option choices are short recharge low damage spikes... problem being need to stay in the frontline which is not where the sin is meant to be. So the problem in pvp is that the class concept is either overpowered or not as good as other options.

Agreed the sin is not meant to spike high damage, and is not intended to hold the front line. the concept is to be a nuisance, assisting warriors/dervs by getting to the target first or finishing them. Basically in and out so as not to be a pain to the healers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

In low end areas, sure they are gods but thats only because low end doesnt have the organisation to defend against one.

It's a game of skill, most people can't pull off a sin in high end areas. So when they get cut down people think sins are terrible. I've seen loads of excellent sins in both AB and RA, plus plenty of terrible ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Please dont assume I am a sin hater. I love sins, but having played them and other classes, in most pvp situations a war/derv/thumper is a better option, and in most pve situations, well they work fine, and I wouldnt necessarily want a different option, but the arent irreplaceable.

Can see you're not a sin hater, but you underestimate the little buggers. There's a time and a place for every profession, skill and combo in the game. In some places other professions work better. I personally prefer a warrior but I know how to use a sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Finally, in pve and pvp a sin is all about pressing 1-2-3-4-5 (or variations of this), there is no such thing as a "good" sin. There is noob sins, and then there are people that arent idiots. If ur the latter ur a "good" sin.

Don't agree there, sins are only as much about button mashing as anyone else by that definition. What about pre-nerf ursans, or fire eles or the warrior who won't use anything other than cripslash/gash? Everyone plays the game differently and people form habits which are hard to break. It's not rocket science but if you have a terrible build any char is toast...

Vallisahllirium · Oct 23, 2008, 06:47 AM // 06:47

well cause I was playing sin for over year and half, must answer here :P

Quote:

The Sin was intially intended to hit and run, either as an initial damage dealer, stealth attack to weaken an opponent or to hold aggro til a tank got in then retreat and lash out, basically to cause confusion. Instead players used shadow steps to run in and try to spike. Sins were never intended to hold pressure in pvp, merely to be a troublemaker, starter or finisher.

/signed

Not knowing to play class isn`t reason to bash it. And about 1-2-3-4-5-kill tactic you show that u don`t know to play sin cause u also need to know when to strike, who to strike, like with any other class. and thats where shadowstep comes in play-I must mention AoD cause its my favorite skill, dont know why a lot of people shadowstep in, then die, and repeeat...its great offensive and defensive skill. As oscuro said you kill or you cause confusion then go out. Problem is that people use assassins as kamikazee class (its like I will kill or die yeepee!!), think its because so many people after yout attack them and then shadowstep back start to call u noob runner, lets 1 vs 1...well pvp is about team game not about I will all 1 vs 1 you and show you that I`m best 1 vs 1 guy in universe

And when we talk about 1 vs 1 my assassin can kill warrior tank

dasmitchies · Oct 23, 2008, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Sin's don't suck. (Neither do Mesmers) . Want proof? Most of the nerfs for Pvp have been directed squarely at both professions. Nerf shadowsteps, nerf ele spell energy gain, nerf knockdown combos etc. Sins were meant to spike targets which warriors couldn't get to off of the frontline. Ranger/ sin spike combos are still nasty when two players can gel properly. Sins still can spike well against soft targets, however as pointed out earlier, breaking combo chains is a major problem. Anymore the only pvp a sin can excel at is AB. I run a spear/Dancing dagger combo (I know suks right but still ganks wars :P) The problem with sins is as stated most people can't play them right. My favorite char is my sin then my mes. Guess I like my game to be more challenging. As for PVE, any character class can romp PVE with the right hero setup. SIn/spear w discordway is nasty. But the it is only slightly nastier than any other Discordway prof combo.

Master Ketsu · Oct 23, 2008, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Slightly off topic but in PVP cases:

-Random Arena: Ridiculously overrated.

-Hero Battle: Highly rated and rightfully so.

-Hero's ascent: Ridiculously underrated.

-Alliance Battle: About even.

-Guild Battle: slightly underrated.

Anime Divine · Oct 23, 2008, 07:22 AM // 07:22

+shadowform OWNS

well not really but still.

Quote:

my assassin can kill warrior tank

OMG YOU DID NOT JUST SAY THAT!!

mayby just mayby on unsuspecting wars

Winterclaw · Oct 23, 2008, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Sassies are good farmers and with the right build, I've seen them hold halls... but that build is usually nerfed.

Vallisahllirium · Oct 23, 2008, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anime Divine

+shadowform OWNS

well not really but still.

OMG YOU DID NOT JUST SAY THAT!!

mayby just mayby on unsuspecting wars

well must admit I had Battle Cry effect on me, and it took enough time and shadowsteping around

but otherwise it was pure fight(not suprise attack)

X Cytherea X · Oct 23, 2008, 08:12 AM // 08:12

in the right hands, ASSASSINS F'IN RULE.

sins can make wars and dervs eat dust before they even know what hit em.

some combos are less prone to shutdown than others.

some spikes are more repeatable than others.

antimelee can be dealt with by using your secondary.

12345 is not limited to sins, idiots from other profs do it too.

shadowsteps are overrated, i never needed them.

despite all the nerfs, instagib is still possible.

Luminarus · Oct 23, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

A sin is not a hard concept to play, yes timing is everything, but timing is everything for everything. Timing when to spike a lone character etc. My point still stands in that a sin cannot maintain a front line position, therefore cannot pressure. It also cant shadow step more then once every 20 seconds without losing out in too much of its bar,therefore it cant step in and out like that. INFACT when sins first came out, barring AoD all the shadowsteps had a recharge of 45 seconds.

The sin line comes down to 3 problems:

1. Inability to 'fake' a spike (change targets after pretending to spike on in order to spike another) due to the fact that all the good spikes need a precurser, which on a sin is pretty difficult to fak.
2. Inability to pressure. If ur sitting in the melee range for too long ur asking to get raped. Shattering Assualt builds are pretty much the only exception to this because of the fact that the chain is short, recharging, and is great at ripping defences opening that char up for attack.
3. Simple shutdown. The chain nature of the attacks makes it to easy to prevent their spike going through
4. I said it before, ill say it again. If they can kill fast enough to be worth it they are overpowered. If not they arent worth it.

Finally, how can ANYONE say a sin isnt 1,2,3,4,5? The chain is set in order, therefore it HAS to be 12345. If ur not doing 12345 then ur not attacking with ur chain right. Sure there might be circumstances when u might swap the dual attacks in the chain (eg twisting fangs first instead of horns) in order to get the instant kill on a low target. However the vast majority of the time the sin is going to be using his combo 1-6.

Finally, with the inout concept of a sin... unless ur Elite is occupied from AoD or ur not using an IAS (Shadow Walk), u have to waste 2 skill slots for an in out combo, which takes 30 seconds to recharge. (Ignoring shadow fang because its 45 recharge, and the fact that hex removal majorly screws you over.

If someone can post any GOOD (doesnt have to be great, just good enough to be worth a party slot) sin build that can be effective in gvg/ha and isnt a 1-6 spammer, ill recant and bow down to u. If not, then my point stands.

@Cabalo...
1) Never played rogue in warcraft so dunno
2) If a sin was meant to go in to weaken the opponent as you suggested through hit and runs, wouldnt shadow steps have a far lower recharge such that you can actually hit and run. A melee fighter not fighting isnt doing his job.
3) If a sin starts attacking a foe, he either hasnt done much damage and is basically irrelevant, or the foe has been protted and healed. If he hasnt done much damage then how is a war/derv gonna finish him off? If hes protted then the war/derv attacking is just a waste. The same goes in reverse, if a warriors spiking a target, the target is either protted or dead. Due to sins chains, one skill missing and its over. Therefore, if the target is alive it now has spirit bond, or another prot (guardian, aegis, soa, etc) and ur attack is again... useless.
4) In a low end area a 7 second spike can kill something because most self heals are insufficient, and there usually isnt a backup to help near by. In low end the great sins are those that pick off the targets in both the weakest position (for the enemy) and the strongest position for you. For example facing 2 warriors, a mesmer and a paragon, the mesmer will be isolated out the back. The mesmer or the paragon are the best choices because both are isolated, and away from the high damage of the warriors. But this all comes down to what I said before, in low end a Great sin is anyone who looks at the field and positioning. Since you have like 10 seconds atleast in between spikes, theres plenty of time to work out who to attack next.
5) I definately do not underestimate sins. I know the damage one can cause in low end areas. I also know their limitations which is why I would never really suggest bringing one in high end areas, apart from in a couple of select team ideas.
6) I dont disagree with you on this point. Ur describing how the bad warriors/eles play. Just button mashing and hoping. A good player will use his skills at the most oppurtune moment, which again is why sins fail. They cant pressure whilst waiting for the oppurtune moment. I would rather pressure through melee until theres a break then spike rather then sit around for 20 seconds hoping for an opening to kill through. The sins skill chains by definition are 1-2-3-4-5. You cant go... hmm a deepwound would be nice right now, gogo twisting fangs. You have to go... that targets low, golden pheonix twisting fangs. or if in LOD combo, golden fox, wild, fangs.

X Cytherea X · Oct 23, 2008, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

1. Inability to 'fake' a spike (change targets after pretending to spike on in order to spike another) due to the fact that all the good spikes need a precurser, which on a sin is pretty difficult to fak.

you can normal attack the fake target for awhile then suddenly switch to the real target and do your combo.

Quote:

2. Inability to pressure. If ur sitting in the melee range for too long ur asking to get raped. Shattering Assualt builds are pretty much the only exception to this because of the fact that the chain is short, recharging, and is great at ripping defences opening that char up for attack.

moebius+criticaldef builds can pressure. a warrior can get raped just as badly by degen/spiking/elemental weapons anyway.

Quote:

3. Simple shutdown. The chain nature of the attacks makes it to easy to prevent their spike going through

if a warrior's eviscerate or a dervish's wounding strike are dshotted, their spike will suck too.

Quote:

4. I said it before, ill say it again. If they can kill fast enough to be worth it they are overpowered. If not they arent worth it.

this is an opinion. instagib should exist in the game. it still does, though not as easy to achieve as before. (it was still pretty hard even before)

Quote:

Finally, how can ANYONE say a sin isnt 1,2,3,4,5? The chain is set in order, therefore it HAS to be 12345. If ur not doing 12345 then ur not attacking with ur chain right. Sure there might be circumstances when u might swap the dual attacks in the chain (eg twisting fangs first instead of horns) in order to get the instant kill on a low target. However the vast majority of the time the sin is going to be using his combo 1-6.

warriors and dervs have ideal skill orders that would best be arranged chronologically as well. eviscerate-agonizing-executioner or wounding-chilling-mystic for example, would not be as effective if done out of order. the option is there, but it would suck.

Quote:

Finally, with the inout concept of a sin... unless ur Elite is occupied from AoD or ur not using an IAS (Shadow Walk), u have to waste 2 skill slots for an in out combo, which takes 30 seconds to recharge. (Ignoring shadow fang because its 45 recharge, and the fact that hex removal majorly screws you over.

shadowstepping is overrated, good sins shouldnt need it.

Quote:

3) If a sin starts attacking a foe, he either hasnt done much damage and is basically irrelevant, or the foe has been protted and healed. If he hasnt done much damage then how is a war/derv gonna finish him off? If hes protted then the war/derv attacking is just a waste. The same goes in reverse, if a warriors spiking a target, the target is either protted or dead. Due to sins chains, one skill missing and its over. Therefore, if the target is alive it now has spirit bond, or another prot (guardian, aegis, soa, etc) and ur attack is again... useless.

he meant sins can both initiate or finish spikes. the drawbacks you described hold true for any melee based spike. prots will always hinder spikes. that's you have to spike fast on an unprotted target, shatter the prots, or shutdown the protter.

Quote:

I would rather pressure through melee until theres a break then spike rather then sit around for 20 seconds hoping for an opening to kill through.

only noobs sit around for 20 seconds. bring a faster recharging chain.

Quote:

The sins skill chains by definition are 1-2-3-4-5. You cant go... hmm a deepwound would be nice right now, gogo twisting fangs. You have to go... that targets low, golden pheonix twisting fangs. or if in LOD combo, golden fox, wild, fangs.

this is true, but a 4-5 hit sin combo with deep wound is more damaging than any other combo, which makes it worth the 12345.

gremlin · Oct 23, 2008, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

This was all I had to read in order to answer your thread.

No, most people do not go into sin gameplay very much.

People see the Assassin and think "cool, a new tank" or "sweet ninja time!"

Then they go in, try to tank, and get wtfpwned because they don't know that assassins usually do not tank (they can, but only with specific builds - and I'm not talking about Perma SF).

Then they go "wtf why is the armor low?!?!?" and they just rip on sins mindlessly saying "sins are weak" and "sins are so easy a monkey can roll it's head across 1-7 and pwn." - that last statement was later revised to be used for Ursan.

Most people should know, that most people suck as assassins in PvE at first due to their melee range, lack of good defense skills at first, low attributes, and low armor, and because they don't know that, they give up before getting max armor, good skills, max attribute points, and say that sins suck.

Same goes with Mesmers, they are harder to play than most casters, like sin is harder than most melee, and people bash on them because they cannot play those professions.

If I was as nonsensical as these people, I'd be bashing on supporters 24/7 because I absolutely suck at playing a support role (I always end up over healing, or just targeting myself).

QFT
Yep I think you hit several nails on the head with those words and summed up the assassin then and now.
Assassins had a difficult birth because many players misunderstood their function.
I don't know how any classes work in pvp because I seldom play that area of the game it being a deeply flawed and badly organised part of the game.

In pve the assassin is a perfectly created surgical strike merchant capable of taking out most single targets and holding their own in a front line for a short time.

GW is very much a Stone paper scissors game and while on the whole all the classes do well enough in most situations there are times when scissors are just way way better than stone or paper.
Its the strength of GW that it can satisfy the expectations of many people

One of the things that puzzles me about players in gw
There are claims that pve is too easy and players want more challenge in the game.
Then someone suggests a particular class or build and you get the response of
That's a crap build you need to do it this way or no point in playing say that class their useless.
Warriors are better than assassin Rangers are better at interrupting than mesmers etc.

Well there is your challenge, give up your ranger warrior monk etc and play a pve party through the game not using your easy classes.

You might learn something.